So long, income tax?
BY MAITE JULLIAN FOR THE SUN CHRONICLE
Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:14 AM EDT
Massachusetts' voters will be asked Nov. 4 whether to eliminate the state income tax. Until then, opponents and supporters will be campaigning hard to convince voters.
With ballot signatures certified last week for the proposal initiated by the libertarian group Committee for Smaller Government, the push to repeal the state income tax is officially on. And it creates a lot of opposition.
If the proposal passes, the state would lose $12 billion a year, a 40-percent cut in annual revenue that opponents say would gut local aid to communities across Massachusetts.
"We already have a $1 billion shortfall in the budget with the state income tax," said Michael Widmer, president of the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, which opposes the repeal. "Without the tax, it would be a $13 billion shortfall."
If local legislators, cities and towns and major interest groups are opposed to it, they all concede there is a good chance the proposal will be approved by voters fed up with rising living costs and gasoline prices.
"This is a very difficult time for many people," Widmer said. "And that's the problem. I take it very seriously because if it passes, it will be a huge problem."
A similar proposal in 2002 got 45 percent of the vote.
Widmer said that even if there was also a recession that year, there was not the surge in prices that people face today. And that could make a difference.
Geoffrey Beckwith, president of the Massachusetts Municipal Association, said repeal of the income tax would have an "extraordinary impact," especially on cities and towns already struggling with their budgets.
"It would make a very bad situation an unimaginable one," he said.
But Carla Howell, president of the Committee for Smaller Government who filed the petition for the second time, said the state will survive without the income tax.
"When we end the income tax, politicians on Beacon Hill will still be collecting $17 billion in other taxes and revenues," she said.
Her group collected more than 20,000 signatures to support the proposal, far more than the 11,099 needed to place it on the state's general election ballot in November.
Howell said she is optimistic about the vote's outcome.
"We have a good chance to get it passed," she said. "We've been hearing from people collecting signatures that a lot of people are enthusiastic about that."
Howell said hundreds of volunteers will focus on a grass-roots effort.
"We encourage volunteers to go to our Web site, send links to their co-workers and friends to learn about the state income tax and our campaign, write letters to newspapers editors, call and talk on the radio, put up yard signs," she said. "We don't have a specific plan yet, but we'll be calling out to volunteers to end the state income tax."
It's shaping up to be an epic battle.
Already, opposition is mobilizing in the state, led by the Coalition for Our Communities, a group comprised of the Massachusetts AFL-CIO, several communities, non-profits, businesses and individuals.
The AFL-CIO is calling on all unions to join the coalition and urges on its Web site to oppose "the decimation of local aid to cities and towns, and the inevitable property tax increases to provide the necessary funding for our schools, police and fire protection, emergency medical services and transportation infrastructure."
State officials and legislators also vowed to fight against the repeal, along with interest groups such as the Massachusetts Teachers Association and Blue Cross/Blue Shield.
Beckwith said that although the municipal association won't directly campaign against the proposal because it is not a political organization, it will comment on implications of the repeal.
"We'll do educational work on it," he said. "We will be informing anyone interested in listening about the impact of such a measure."
Widmer said his organization will start work on an analysis on the impact of the measure as soon as the state budget is complete next month.
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cam1 wrote on Jul 22, 2008 7:20 PM:
These are the people that are telling you to keep on paying while they get a free ride. Call you Legislator and ask him/her about this, ask them what they intend to do to correct this injustice "
realist wrote on Jun 26, 2008 12:18 PM:
bmcvay731 wrote on Jun 26, 2008 11:13 AM:
I'm not 100% versed on what I'm talking about, so correct me please if you have more information - I am under the belief that elected officials, as well as all public employees, are employed in the state pension fund, in which case 10% of their salaries are withheld from their paychecks and deposited into this fund, which is in turn invested. Under some presumably complex chart that would make Ross Perot proud, officials can retire at certain ages with certain service at certain percentages of their salaries.
I have no problem with this, as it's not my money. To my knowledge, the elected officials and public employees don't pay social security taxes, which saves the state from matching social security payments. If they all invest 10% of their money and are guarenteed X dollars per year at retirement out of their pot of cash, I could care less. What should be on the ballot is making sure this pot of cash is not further subsidized by the public. Either pay more of their pay to reach the same level of return to fully fund the pension fund, invest the pot more wisely, or get a new job! "
realist wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:48 AM:
Since no one else has offered a compromise, I propose that if this initiative fails that the next one be to eliminate the pension plan for elected officials. Set up a 401k that they have to contribute to out of their own salaries. Also, if they want health insurance - they get the minimum coverage required by employers.
That will produce a lot of turnover in the legislature and eliminate the belief that you are elected for life. The initial savings won't be a lot - but in the long run maybe we get more responsible people in office. Those who aren't looking for a free ride for life. "
ucbruin wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:59 PM:
bmcvay731 wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:10 PM:
Here's all I got. Right now we pay, compared to most of the states surrounding us, low income taxes, a low sales tax, and low property taxes. NH has one of three, and it's a high one. If the income tax goes down, other taxes and fees will go up. Will the pols cut the fat or cut the bone? It's their call. I think the state needs reform, and if this measure scares them into enacting it, that's one thing. If you're intelligent enough to know that your vote will have consequences beyond the potential for a 5.3% pay raise, I honestly respect your right to cast that vote. "
skeptic wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:04 PM:
Oh and I don't read the Herald. Just the Globe, SC, Wall Street Journal and sometimes the NY Times on line when I want to see what the Elect Obama campaign (also known as the NYT editorial board) is doing. "
bmcvay wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:58 PM:
Kevin, as you actually wrote "PS - Keep hammering him!" IN a post, the equivalent of "Get him! Get him!", you are exempt.
I haven't seen any polling on the income tax issue since January, where I believe it stood 46-45-9, for-against-undecided. I can't recall the numbers from 2002 but I believe it was a 48-40-12 vote, aye-nay-no vote. Absent a new vote, some things to consider.
- The last vote was not a presidential election year. If Obama brings out the Democrats, there's a likelihood for a greater share of nay votes than would have come out for Shannon O'Brien.
- A Republican won a statewide election during the last vote, and I believe Romney independents would have been more likely to vote aye in 2002. Unless there's a surge for McCain, not as many likely aye votes with this factor.
- The income tax issue was mostly ignored in 2002 by everyone except Carla Howell, who responded to the question "Do you know where the ladies' room is?" with "Small government is beautiful!". Creepy. This time, it will drive people to the polls on its own than in 2002.
- Inflation is on the rise, specifically oil prices, which will lead many to vote with their wallets. That said, the dow dropped from 11,700 to 7,200 during the last vote. "
bmcvay731 wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:31 PM:
Bye Bye Prop 2.5! Hello 8% sales tax! Bye Bye property values!!!
I can understand that people are pinched with inflation and read about corruption every morning in the Herald and want to do something. I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why seemingly educated people assume that the income tax will be voted out, the politicians will all resign and issue letters of apology to the people, and you'll never notice a blip in essential services. The same people "realist" complains about are still going to decide where the cuts are going to come from, and they're still going to be able to pass a new law overriding the voters just like they did last time.
Saying NH and Florida don't have an income tax and are doing just fine ignores their massive property tax rates. If someone can find a quadrillion barrels of oil in downtown Framingham, the Alaska comparison works. Wyoming and North Dakota are wonderful examples of how your state can prosper without an income tax if it were a giant forest or desert.
The income tax may very well be voted down in November, and no matter where you stand on the issue, don't let Carla Howell, a woman who refers to herself in third person, convince you that angelic choirs will sing and everything will be wonderful. "
kevin h. wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:19 AM:
Bye Bye Income tax. Yee Ha!!!!!!
p.s. Keep hammering him realist. "
realist wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:09 AM:
The problem is Spamalot01 seems to live in an ideal "community" where all the leaders are wise and benevolent and all good people pay the taxes the wise and benevolent leaders levy. Please, at least tell me what county you live in so I may enjoy this paradise.
The reality is a good portion of our elected leadership has only one interest, getting re-elected. The electorate is getting lazy and keeps casting their votes for the familiar names (I know we get the government we deserve). The employee unions in the state and local towns are interested in preserving their jobs (no merit pay or promotions for teachers, for example) and when we Neanderthals complain we are called selfish because everyone else is working for "our children". Before this thread started I was on the fence about this ballot initiative - but I've become a supporter. Someone please get me a bumper sticker. "
Spamalot01 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:38 PM:
kevin h. wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:16 PM:
kevin h. wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:07 PM:
bigfishsmallpond wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:54 PM:
dandydon wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:25 PM:
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:23 PM:
We obviously will never agree because you don't see taxes as I do; an inherent evil that must be minimally tolerated and not levied without the consent of the governed... or is that another quaint lie Thomas Jefferson told us. "
Spamalot01 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:16 PM:
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:04 PM:
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:03 PM:
To my fellow posters, please excuse the rant, but Spamalot01's Cambridge style of holier than thou politics is the type of thing that sets me off. No taxation without representation is not a quaint saying from 230 years ago, it is the basis of our way of life. Or it should be. "
Spamalot01 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 2:33 PM:
Spamalot01 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 2:24 PM:
guynoir wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:49 PM:
guynoir wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:48 PM:
Next, the way a shortfall is created is by the following: The legislature adds up all the fun stuff they want to spend money on like a Christmas list, then cry that there's not enough money to pay for it all. Deception.
Finally, the state hides about $15M "off books," so the state actually spends over $40B according to the CAFR. Ending the Income Tax would amount to a ~27% redction in revenue, not 40 like the legislature claims. Lies. "
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:07 PM:
DiMasi showed a lot of promise, for a Democrat, when he obtained his office. But he too has been corrupted by the trappings of power and the unwillingness of his party members to control him. "
us1087 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:01 PM:
You blind fools that think that everything is fine have lived in Mass too long. Where is this quality of life I hear so much about? I have lived in Mass for two years and all I see are bad neighborhoods, questionable people, and clueless politicians who know how to run my life better than I do.
I would like to see a politican (any politican) who would cut some of the do nothing waste of space state employees who show up and collect a paycheck. Or how about the cop who sits in South Attleboro Square on the weekends who keeps people from turning on to Route 123. Seems like his time could be better spent helping the community. "
bigfishsmallpond wrote on Jun 24, 2008 10:34 AM:
bmcvay731 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:41 AM:
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:04 AM:
" A further comment, This measure will likely fail because of the two ends of the economic spectrum in Massachusetts. On the lower end you have people who get more in tax credits than they pay in taxes and at the upper end (I'm talking to you Cambridge and Wellesley) you have people who pay little in personal taxes but feel that everyone should be giving "their fair share". " "
Soxfan wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:02 AM:
The devil we know is better than the one we are looking at. "
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:59 AM:
realist wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:29 AM:
However, the legislature and governor will have no problem ignoring the will of the people.
Additionally, why is it selfish to not want to pay taxes? Unjust taxes led to a revolution that started a country somewhere... I forget which one. "
kevin h. wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:25 AM:
p.s. Spamloaf, you think we are greedy. It is OUR money. It is those with viewpoints such as yourself who must greedily find more ways of collecting hard earned tax payer monies to redistribute to the projects THEY FEEL are more deserving than those who CREATED that wealth. "
bmcvay731 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:16 AM:
Soxfan wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:10 AM:
Harry Hindsight wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:03 AM:
Of the states listed above, do any of these seem to be poor states. A case may be made for Alaska, but it may not be too strong. Texas, Washington, Florida and Nevada are not what I think of states in distress. South Dakota and Wyoming have small populations compared to land size. I don't think of these two states as those where people are that suck off of the system though.
From these seven, I think Mass can learn how to function properly without an income tax. "
watcher2 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:42 AM:
Harry Hindsight wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:36 AM:
I'm not saying that this is perfect idea. Let's look at the states without income tax and see how they function. I'm sure Mass is not the first and only state to try to operate like this. "
Spamalot01 wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:54 AM: